125 Transcript: How Past Hurts Can Affect Your Marriage (with Carolina Castaños)
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J: You're listening to the Vibrant Happy Women podcast, episode number 125, all about how past hurts can affect your marriage; stay tuned.
Intro: Welcome to the Vibrant Happy Women podcast, stories of vibrant women living happy lives. And now, your host, Jen Riday.
J: What's up, everybody? Jen Riday here, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Vibrant Happy Women podcast. How are you doing this week? I want to let you know I love you all so much; I love you, you're amazing. We have another great episode today, I'm bringing on Dr. Carolina Castaños and we're going to be talking about developing deeply fulfilling relationships. I know, I know sometimes, you don't even feel that's possible, but it is possible. We're talking about how our attachment patterns from the past influence how we interact in our relationships and how we can start to heal those past patterns so we feel more secure and more attached in our relationships. I'm so excited, this is the coolest thing in the world and that's coming up today. I want to give a shout out to Kristen who left our review of the week. She wrote, “Hey, Jen, I stumbled on your podcast and have been binge listening for weeks. Your topics are dynamic and broad so I'm never bored. They're all so focused enough to zing this working mom of 4 with inspiration. Other gifts received, joy, practical help, great ideas, support, and laughs. Thanks for what you're creating and keep it up; all the good stuff- Kristen.” Kristen, thank you so much, that means the world to me. And everyone else, if you would like to leave a review, I would love it; I read every single one. And you can leave yours at jenriday.com/review. Let's get into today's episode.
Carolina Castaños is talking about relationships. What would it look like for you to feel deeply connected to your spouse or partner? Is that happening now? How would that feel if you could make that happen? Let me tell you a little about today's guest. Carolina is a mom of 3 and a bilingual award-winning marriage and family therapist. She has been doing this for 18 years and she is world-renowned for helping couples and families and individuals heal from those past wounds that we all have so we can have those deeply connected relationships. I love the work she's doing in the world and she's my special guest on the Vibrant Happy Women podcast today. She'll teach you how to take a look at your attachment patterns, how to identify those patterns of conflict you've been following in your marriage, and how to change those, how to heal those past hurts, and how to change those patterns so you feel more deeply connected. So without further ado, let's get into that interview with Carolina.
I'm chatting with Dr. Carolina Castaños today and she's a bilingual award-winning marriage and family therapist. With 18 years of experience and a PhD in marriage and family therapy, she's world renowned for helping couples, family, and individuals heal from past wounds and guide them to establish safe deeply connected relationships. Carolina lives in North Carolina with her husband and 3 kids and too many dogs, in her words. Welcome to the show, Carolina.
C: Hi, Jen, thank you so much; thank you for having me in this show. And, yes, definitely I do have too many dogs.
[Laughter]
J: How many? Do you want to confess?
C: Ai yai yai! I feel bad saying it, but I have 4 little dogs.
J: (Laughs). That’s… I've heard worse.
C: And… you know, it’s a lot of work. So, yeah, needless to say, I am a dog lover. (Laughs)
J: Okay so who's more work, the 4 dogs or the 3 kids and the spouse? (Laughs)
C: Ai yai yai! It adds up.
[Laughter]
C: But I think right now, the dogs because one of them is a puppy.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So, you know, they're in that stage where they bite everything and, yeah…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … you have to be taking care of them all the time, but it all adds up; man, it's hard.
J:Yeah, I know; it is. Well, let's dive in and have your favorite quote for us today; a favorite motto or a favorite quote.
C: Okay, so this will bring me into everything that I wanted to share with you today, and that's taking care of yourself and being kind towards yourself. And just as we were talking about you were asking me, you know, “What's more work; the husband, the kids?” it's so hard to be a woman, to be a mom, you know, to have all these different hats. Sometimes we forget about ourselves…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … and we forget about our needs and we feel guilty when we do; at least that's how I felt for a long time, you know, and we're trying to juggle all this. So one of the things that I have learned that has helped me find peace and be more centered has been to learn to take care of myself, learn to be okay with my feelings, with my needs, and learning to be kind towards myself. And that… sometimes I have to remind myself because I forget.
J: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So that's something I think every listener of this show is working on, and that's a good thing because, when mom’s happy, everyone's happy. But take us back to, you know, kind of your life story and a low point you might have experienced and how you were forced to learn this lesson.
C: Yeah. Okay, my life story, I'll really quickly give you bits of my previous life. But so I've traveled a lot, I lived in many, many different countries; which is good and bad. It's good because you learn about different cultures, you learn about different people. The bad thing (and it's good at the end) is that you leave and then you learn to adapt and adjust at different cultures. So coming into the… the US (I’m thinking how many years ago) 16, 17 years ago, I entered the program and I started developing myself as a professional, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Going to grad school; so that was hard. That was hard to have all these… like I was saying, all these different hats, right; being a mom, taking care of little ones, being a wife, taking care of my house, my husband, being a student, and later a professional. And that took me to the hardest part thus far has been creating something. So all my professional experience led me to the creation of an online program, but that took so much time, you know?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And I felt very guilty because I wasn't being that perfect mom that I wanted to be or I tried to be, you know, and then I couldn't be the wife that I wanted to because I don't… you just don't have time for everything.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right. So I wanted to be the volunteer that's going to school, you know, making those… baking those brownies to take to school, and at the same time, spend time with my husband… something had to give.
J: Yeah. I feel like a lot of moms spend time giving and giving, giving, and then they wake up one day and say, “Ugh, I lost myself. I want to create something. What am I going to do? How do I do both?” so what did you figure out how do you balance both of those?
C: So, you know, the type of job that I do, I think, helps me because I really try to work on myself because I have to be grounded and I have to in order to help others, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So I learned to listen to myself and to listen to my needs. And I learned that, the more I was able to do that, the less anxious I felt, and the more I could be with my kids, I could be with my husband, it's more quality, right?
J: Yes.
C: So those moments that I am with them, I am feeling more centered, I'm feeling better. And sometimes, I don't; you know, sometimes I'm stressed, and sometimes, I'm irritable. So it's that learning to listen to myself and to say, “Okay, I am irritable, I'm recognizing that; I need 5.”
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And go and breathe and do an exercise, do whatever I need to do to figure out, you know, “What is it about that irritability? What is making me irritable? What is happening?” because it's not about, you know, my kid that spilled the milk, right?
J: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
C: It's not about that; it's something of mine.
J: Well, tell us more about where you grew up and what kind of example you saw the women in your life showing you and how you've balanced that ideal from your past with what you want to be doing now; because that's also a big struggle many of us have.
C: Yes. Well, so I grew up in Latin America, and I'm going to say Latin America because, as I told you, I lived in many different countries. But, you know what? This is interesting. I come from a family with females that are very strong.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So, you know, profession is important. But sometimes, having being that professional left aside the kids and the nurturer and the loving, right?
J: Yeah.
C: Because you can become too much. And I think through generations, that's been balancing up. So my grandmother, she wrote literature, she wrote poems, but she was so immersed in that that she wasn't very nurturing towards my mom.
J: Ah.
C: And my… so, for her, again, all this professional, you know, intellectual was so important for her. She was a little more nurturing, but still (Laughs)… So I felt that; I felt that many times, I wasn't important for my mom.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And that was something that definitely has shaped me and has shaped my way of being a mom.
J: Mm.
C: Because I was like, “I… I know how it feels, you know, to say, you know, ‘Right now, I don't have time for you,’” and that happens too often with… you know, happened with my mom. So I know how that felt like.
J: Mm.
C: And I didn't want my kids to feel that way.
J: Wow.
C: And that's for my own guilt, you know? And now, I'm thinking, “Is this, you know, my own projection?” (Laughs). But at the same time, I want to be a nurturing mom and a loving mom and a mom that listens to my kids needs and attends to them. Sometimes I kind of went to the other extreme to balance that.
J: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so what does that look like in a day? How many hours do you work? Or do you have a certain routine that helps you to balance? I'm listening for myself because that's the trick of working and being a mom. I have 6 kids so I'm always working on the balance piece myself.
C: (Laughs). So this is what I do, I see patients from 8:30 to 2:30. Every single morning, I drop of my kids and that is a time that I adore going to school. Then, I always pick them up; so at 3 o'clock, I'm at school. And then, in the afternoon, it's my mom/work time. So sometimes, you know, when I have to do work, all the administrative stuff and this other… the moving on thing, program, that I was telling you about, that requires a lot of work that I can do from home.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So we do homework together, we have snack together; so that's kind of my time with them, you know?
J: Yeah, yeah. Well, that sounds similar to how I do it. I'm 9:00 to 3:00 and then when the kids are here, the kids are here. Yeah, well, cool.
C: Yes. But, you know what? I didn't do that, Jen.
J: Hmm.
C: At some point, and because I see couples… and this is a piece where it's, you know, taking care of myself that I didn't do. So when I started, I saw, you know, from 8:00 to 3:00, then I picked up my kids, and I went back every single night from like 5:30 to 10:00.
J: Wow.
C: I had patients, I saw couples, my last session started at, I think, sometimes at night. So it's so late, it's so crazy. You see, I was really… it wasn't balanced.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: It was too much.
J: Right.
C: Too much working on that, you know, professional development.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Then I was definitely not taking care of myself.
J: Wow. Yeah, that's tricky to… I'm sure you hit a burnout point then. And then…
C: Yes.
J: … what helped you to make this shift and say, “Enough, I can't do it this way anymore,”?
C: I think how I was feeling, Jen.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Really, you don't recognize how stressed you are until you slow down and look inside of yourself; you know, the level of anxiety and the guilt and all this stuff that I had inside and slowly recognizing that and saying, “Yeah.” And of course this took a toll on my relationship with my husband.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right? Because he's saying, “Well, you know what? Because, yes, you’re this mom and you go and…” I did make the cookies and I did go to the volunteering; I did all that, you know, but if I'm coming at 10; you know, coming back.
J: Mm-hm.
C: And I'm exhausted.
J: Wow.
C: So obviously, I don't have time for anything after that. I don't…
J: Right
C: Righ?
J: Right.
C: So he was also, you know, “Look at this.” And there's always… we can always give reasons, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right, because I want to be this professional and dah-dah-dah-dah-dah. And, yes, but then realizing and listening to myself and saying, “Huh, am I?”
J: (Laughs)
C: And, “Am I taking care of myself?”
J: (Laughs). Yeah. And, “Are you living in the way you would recommend your clients to live?” that becomes a big one.
C: That becomes a big one. And I think… and that's part of what I love what I do because I really adore helping people; that's my thing. But also, we grow through that. We grow as parents as… you know, we're helping your kids grow, you… man, you learn so much. But I also learned so much for my patients, and I think that being congruent, you know, that what you're saying matches what you do…
J: (Laughs) Yes.
C: … that feels important. So sometimes (and I have done this; I've done this) when I'm struggling, I say to myself, “Okay, now, I'm a therapist, right? I’m Carolina the therapist, what do I say to myself? What would I say to someone that comes to me and with this issue? What would I say? What would I do?” And I listen to myself and I say, “Okay, that's what I'm going to do.
J: (Laughs). That's funny.
C: Yeas, yes, I have this conversation with myself. (Laughs)
J: Well, it's funny because, whenever I am struggling with something, my husband has no clue what to say, but he's found a statement that works and it's that, “What would you say to your clients? (Laughs)
C: Yeah! (unclear) [13:567] (Laughs)
J: Oh yeah. I would say, “X, Y, Z,” and he says, “Okay, do that,” oh, you're right. (Laughs)
C: I love it; I love it. Because, yeah, especially men, they're like, “What do I do? And I have to fix it,” right, because men like to fix.
J: Right, right, right.
C: Yeah.
J: Well, tell us more about being a therapist and how it led to the work you're doing with movingonhelp.com. I can't wait to hear about that.
C: Yes. Oh, okay, so I specialize in relationships and I specialize in trauma. And when I say trauma, you know, trauma is very broad.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So it can be, you know, experiences that have been traumatic, like the war is a traumatic experience of… or being, you know, abused, those are big… or accidents or things like that.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: But trauma, there's also the attachment trauma, right; whenever we feel abandoned or whenever we feel rejected. And that is traumatizing and sometimes we don't recognize that. And trauma, at the end, is it an experience that's overwhelming and that we haven't been able to process and give meaning to, and we don't even know how we feel towards it. So I see many, many couples, and when things are not working with couples, there's… often, there's trauma underlying. So that's what I specialize in, right; figuring out what might be these profound issues or experiences that have been very hurtful that you haven't really healed.
J: Ah. Would you say that a lot of the couples you see wouldn't be struggling as a couple if they didn't have an underlying trauma or is it kind of interwoven? What's your thought on that?
C: Yeah. Well, I am an attachment based therapist so I believe that attachment and how we relate with our caregivers, how our caregivers relate with us, you know, at a very young age impacts how we relate with others…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … as adults.
J: Wow.
C: So if you have felt abandoned, you know, when you're young or you have felt rejected, your mom didn't, right, take care of your needs or other, you know, things were more important or she was very depressed and couldn't take care of you. But whatever that was, that sense of abandonment, rejection, will stay and will have an impact on how you relate with others. And usually, what happens is that we repeat. You know, when we say, “Man, I ended up marrying my dad (or my mom).”
J: Ah, yes.
C: Like, it happens, right?
J: It's true.
C: “What? Consciously, I knew that's the last thing I wanted, and look at me, right?”
J: Yeah.
C: “Here I am stuck with this person that's cheating on me all the time…”
J: Yeah.
C: “Or that makes me feel that I'm worthless.”
J: (Gasps) Wow, that's crazy.
C: It is (Laughs); yeah, that part is so tricky. So when we have felt that way as, you know, when we're young and we're growing out feeling, “My feelings don't matter,” or, “I don't matter,” we tend to end up in a relationship where we don't matter and our feelings don't matter.
J: Wow.
C: Because we are part of that. So it's really important to recognize our own part in this dynamic that we… you know, that we create with others in order to be able to, A, if you want to work on your relationship, right, be able to own, “What is my stuff?” and how my stuff plays a role in this negative cycle that we’re stuck in.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And if you're not in a relationship, but you are in… which is what led me to the creation of Moving On is when… what happens when it doesn't work anymore. You know, and many times, I have so many couples that one of them, you know, when… when they come to see me, they're like, “I'm done!”
J: Mm-hmm.
C: But this is so hard for the other person, right; the person that's feeling abandoned, rejected, right? We have to try; we have to keep on trying. And they do, but there's just one of them is out. Sometimes, they already have someone else or they're just emotionally done.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And it's coming to terms with that.
J: Well, so just backing up a tiny bit, I want to…
C: Yeah.
J: … definitely go there. So I'm thinking about attachment, my husband's mom was suffering a miscarriage when he was about, hmm, 9 to 12 months old and he was shipped to his grandparents. And I often think about that in terms of attachment; what that might have done to him. And definitely, he and I have had to learn much healthier patterns than what we came to the marriage with and we're still sticking it out. And it's actually getting really good, so I'm glad about that. But what do you say to people… how do they know if they have an attachment problem? How could they even identify? Because I'm assuming many people listening want to improve their marriages, so how do they know if there's some kind of an attachment issue that they need to work through?
C: So, you know, like right now with what you're saying about your husband…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … the thought that came to my mind is abandonment, right; feeling abandoned.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: You know, when we feel abandoned, we feel that we're not important, and that's kind of the point. The little… you know, we all have that little spot that hurts.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right? That little place where you feel so vulnerable; so small. And that mental place has to do with what we are or how others see us. So being invisible, being not important, being not enough, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So that's kind of the raw spot. So we all have that one or another way.
J: Uh-huh.
C: And, for some people, it's louder than for others, right? Say, with your husband, I'm going to make up an example, okay?
J: Okay.
C: So say that, for him, right…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … he felt abandoned and he felt that he was not important.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So one day, you come home, right, and he asked you in the morning to have his shirt washed, right, but you've been really busy and you didn't really have time for that. So when he comes home and he's like, “Is my shirt ready?” and you say, “Oh no, I was just about to put it in the washer,” and he goes off, right?
J: Uh-huh.
C: And he's like, “What? I told you with time and you always do this!” you know, “You leave all my stuff to the end and you always have all these…” okay. So when we get triggered, when we get defensive, right…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … that's when something about us has been touched.
J: Yeah.
C: Right? So that's a place where I'm feeling… right now, I'm feeling triggered and triggered… I'm trying to find the word, but… anyway, so for him, the threat is not being important and being abandoned by you.
J: Yes, okay.
C: So the little word… the little voice that he's hearing is, “I'm not important to you and you don't care.” So how do we know that we have attachment issues? You know, when we, in this relationship, get triggered. And our emotional response is not to the degree of what happened…
J: Ooh.
C: … it's more intense.
J: Yeah, that makes sense.
C: It doesn't match.
J: Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay.
C: So when it's too intense, that's a little sign, “Huh, what might this be about? What is it being touched?”
J: Mm-hmm, interesting. So that's kind of an insecure attachment. What about that style of attachment avoidant, right? So my husband would actually, I would say, when he came to the marriage, he didn't need anything from anybody, so I feel like that was more of an avoidant type of attachment (you know what I mean?) where he wasn't even going to open up and allow himself to need anybody, you know what I'm saying? Are there types of attachment disorders that you can tell us about?
C: Right, so there's basically… and we… because we can go to the ambivalent, but that's a little… So you have 3, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Within the insecure attachment, you would have the avoidant type, which is kind of what you're saying, right; removing from emotions.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: You would have more of the anxious that's more… it comes out more needy.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And you would have more of the ambivalent, which is kind of, “I want you, but I don't.”
J: Ooh, mixed messages.
C: So I pull and I push.
J: Oh, yucky! (Laughs)
C: Yes.
J: That's so funny!
C: That's so tough.
J: Oh yeah. Well, as soon as you said those, I knew. I came in with an anxious attachment (I needed proof that I was loved), and my husband came in with complete avoidant, “Why do you need me?” (Laughs)
C: Yeah. You know what?
J: Yeah.
C: I love that you’re saying this because with that come types of ways that we protect ourselves and ways that we protect the relationship.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And with that, we create these negative cycles. And the one that you're mentioning…
J: Totally.
C: … is the most common…
J: Oh.
C: …or one of them and that would be, you would go, “Let's talk about this. Don't go! Don't leave me! Don't abandon…”
J: Yeah.
C: “Why? You never listened to me,” right?
J: Yes, totally.
C: And the other person's like, “Ah! No, no, let’s not fight! Let me go!” and the more they go away, the more the anxious one is like, “Oh no! I'm feeling abandoned, I have to go,” right?
J: Yeah, right.
C: And you create this cycle, and again, it's… it's one of the most common ones.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And that’s, for you, exactly what you're saying, right, “How I'm reacting has to do with, hmm, my past.”
J: Right, it's true. And I want to share how I coped with that pattern. The pattern went on and on and on until I had the miscarriage, a bad miscarriage, and it was just enough trauma that I said, “That's enough. I am not going to have my needs met by him and I'm going to start meeting my own needs.” So that's when my self-care journey began and I started saying, “Hey, I don't need anybody else to be happy. I don't need anybody else to love me; I'm going to love myself.” So that was a big one for me and here I am, that's the work that I do. But what recommendation do you give to people stuck in that pattern to get out of it? I mean, gosh, it's huge, right ?
C: Yes. And you know what? You just touched on something that's so important, right, being happy and what happiness means, right; being happy with yourself.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And, for me, happiness is kind of being at peace. And that peace for me means when your head, right, your thoughts, your beliefs, your heart, your feelings, and your actions kind of match, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: When you're feeling, you're thinking, you're acting, and it's kind of… there's a harmony, right? But, for that, you have to be aware of your feelings.
J: Yes.
C: You have to. And if you take care of yourself and if you really love yourself, so it's taking care of yourself, being kind to yourself, listening to yourself, learning to recognize your needs and providing that to yourself.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And that allows you, not only… the more, you know, that and the more connected you are with that, the more you can love in a different way.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: The more… you know?
J: Yes.
C: Because you don't get triggered.
J: Right .
C: So you don't go to that place. So when you're saying, “What would you say to people that are stuck in that cycle?” right…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … it starts with recognizing, “What about me in it?” Because when we put… the first thing that we do is look outside…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … right, and we play the blame game, right? “What you did.”
“No, what you did.”
J: Right.
C: If you would only change blah-blah-blah, then everything is okay.
J: Right.
C: But this is what happens; the problem and the solution to the problem, it's outside of you.
J: Right.
C: So you're completely powerless.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right?
J: Right.
C: There's nothing for you to do. So the beginning is, “What about me?”
J: Mm-hmm.
C: “What about me in all this?”
J: Yes. And, for me, it was recognizing, “Okay, this is a good a change.” It was finally an acceptance, “He's not going to change. What am I going to do to be happy and love my life?” And the funny thing is, as I started meeting my own needs and I was no longer needy for approval from him, then his interactions and patterns completely changed as well; I feel like, one person changes, everyone else changes.
C: Yeah.
J: Then when I didn't actually need it in that needy way, he started giving me everything I'd always wanted for years; buying me flowers, calling to say he loved me, all of the stuff after I met the need myself first.
C: Right.
J: Crazy, I don't know why that happens. (Laughs)
C: So he's starting to reach out to you?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Yes.
J: Probably because I have love to give and he feels it, rather than needing love the whole time, you know?
C: Yes.
J: Yeah.
C: Yes.
J: Oh, I love therapists, I love what you do; you're amazing.
C: Oh, thank you, Jen, and I love you too.
[Laughter]
J: Well, let's take a quick break for our sponsor and then I want to come back and talk about those relationships where, like you said, sometimes it's not going to heal and you can't fix the pattern, then what? So we'll be right back.
C: Great.
J: Alright, welcome back. So, Carolina, we talked about relationships and attachment patterns where maybe one person is needy or avoidant and how to start taking care of yourself and loving yourself so you don't have to count on your partner to meet that need. So those are the healthy patterns we want, and what percentage of the time would you say you're able to help couples make those shifts, you know, or the most therapists in general?
[Laughter]
C: I love your question, Jen (Laughs). The number; the number! You know, it depends so much… and I don't know if I can… I don't know, do you have a percentage?
J: I don't; I don't know.
C: A success rate?
J: I know that I have a horror story. One time when my husband and I first started therapy, the therapist said, “In 23 years of therapy, I have never seen a couple on such opposite ends of the spectrum as you.” And he said he didn't think you could help us. (Laughs)
C: Yeah?
J: Can you imagine?
C: Yeah.
J: Ah.
C: Yeah, I can because I've gone to a therapist for, you know, working on my relationship as well, and he said, “Man, after taking the…” because he had us take an assessment and whatnot, he said, “You are really, like really, really bad!”
J: (Laughs)
C: And we’re like, “Okay, this is exciting and motivating.” But, you know what? I think that sometimes, those things really… so, for us, right, it was recognizing that we know that.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: That's why we're here, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: If we think that we're really not doing well and that we could handle everything ourselves, we wouldn't be here. But, in a way, it can be, you know, that thing of saying, “Okay, definitely, definitely, I need to look at myself.”
J: Yeah.
C: “And I need to change things.”
J: Right.
C: So, for me, it was that, you know, big… yeah, this is like… the relationship is definitely going, you know, down; it's not working.
J: And, for me, Jen, it was part of that being myself. So, for you, your husband, when you felt better with yourself, right…
J: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
C: … and more accepting…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … your husband started reaching out, right?
J: Right.
C: In my relationship, it created more insecurity.
J: Ah.
C: Right? Because now, the whole dynamic has changed because I was that needy and that works for him, right?
J: Oh, yeah.
C: And now, I am not needy, so what the heck?
[Laughter]
C: I’m abandoning him, right?
[Laughter]
J: I… I have that song running through my mind, I think it's Santana ‘I will be your hero, baby’.
C: Right!
J: (Laughs)
C: Yeah, and that’s who I am.
J: (Laughs)
C: If I’m not called your hero, then I’m not.
J: Oh my gosh, yeah.
C: I don't exist.
J: Uh-huh.
C: So, for me, it was like… and again, realizing and saying, “Yeah, as much as I need to take care of myself…” and part of that is also recognizing, because… and I told you a little bit of the women in my family where this professional piece was so heavy…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: I had to fulfill that too, right?
J: Yeah, right.
C: But then, I am abandoning in… in a way.
J: Uh-huh.
C: And I realized that. So, yeah, shaking myself up a little bit too and saying, “Yes, I need to… for this to work, I have to give time to my relationship and to my husband.”
J: So you have to reassure and invest the time and make sure that he doesn't feel abandoned essentially?
C: Exactly.
J: Ah.
C: Yes, yes.
J: Interesting. Yeah, I have a follower that listens to this podcast and she's feeling more and more empowered and loving herself and, you know, she wants to do more things, and her husband's just so resistant. Any advice for that kind of situation, I mean, just keep reassuring and loving and pressing on with the empowered piece as well?
C: So when you say he's resistant, he's resistant to her…?
J: Traveling alone, for example. Let's say we have a retreat and she wanted to come, he's resistant to that kind of thing, you know?
C: Right.
J: Too much empowerment, right? He wants her to be dependent on him and…
C: Yes!
J: … to be the center of her universe and she shouldn't have this other piece. So she's emailed me about it, that's why I'm talking about it. (Laughs)
C: Yes. And it's kind of relates to would what… my experience, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Because he's feeling abandoned, and if you abandoned me and if you grow, then what about me?
J: Right.
C: So one thing because when we're there, then, you know, we tend to feel that guilt, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And then, “Yes, I can't abandon and I'm responsible for…” And I think, for me, that has been a big thing. You know, I am responsible for myself and I'm responsible for my own personal growth.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: But I am not responsible for my partner's happiness.
J: Yeah.
C: I'm not responsible for my partner's feelings, and I'm not responsible for his personal growth; that's his responsibility. And, for me, that has been huge because that's taken a huge weight. And with that weight off, being more accepting of him, you know?
J: Yes.
C: That is him and this is his own journey. And I stopped pushing him because I realized… I was like, all the time, “Well, but you should do this and that,” I'm like, “Man, that has to suck.” (Laughs)
J: Yeah, it’s true.
C: Because you're feeling criticized all the time, like…
J: Right, right.
C: … no, I have to be accepting and, you know, allowing him to grow at his own pace…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … you know, and giving him space for that, but I'm not responsible for it.
J: Right; ooh, that's good. So is that kind of a mantra you repeat to yourself?
C: Yes.
J: “I'm not responsible,”? Oh, I like that; cool. We'll have that listed on the show notes page, everyone; “I'm not responsible for my partner's happiness, I'm not responsible for my partner's, and I'm not responsible for my partner's personal growth.” That's good.
C: Yeah.
J: That’s a good one (Laughs). Well, so we talked about our marriages and then obviously, divorce is still on the rise in our country; half of all marriages end in divorce. So tell us about that process of when people come in and it really is the end. I mean, my gosh, how do they decide it's the end? How do they work through that process?
C: And, Jen, it's a process.
[Laughter]
C: You know, and the hard thing is that, it's not a parallel process.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: It doesn't happen at the same time for both.
J: Oh.
C: And that's what makes it so painful…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … and so yucky. (Laughs)
J: Ooh.
C: Right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Because the worst comes for that person that feels rejected and abandoned.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Because many times, one of them has been… and it's already processing being out of the relationship before it really happens.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So for the other person like, you know, they’re just said that they're leaving.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And I had no idea. I… what I see it is, as painful as it is… and like with any painful experience, it's an opportunity.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: It's an opportunity to grow, it's an opportunity to look at yourself. You know, many times in life we always think that we can't deal with anything, right? Be it in your relationship, right, we're going to work through it, until you reach that point where you just can't.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Again, relational or individually, until we hit that rock bottom. And sometimes, that is what it takes for us to… because emotions are so intense that we can't escape from them anymore, you know? What we've been doing to ignore them is not working anymore, so it's really an opportunity to look at oneself and say, “Okay…
J: Wow.
C: “… what is going on with me?”
J: Ooh. I had a friend who just shared how she chose to divorce and she said it felt very intuitive. And her husband of many years said this phrase that he'd said so many times, and she said something just clicked in her brain and said, “He's really never going to stop doing this,” and that was the end for her. Do you have any stories of how people reach that decision or how one person reaches that decision to just end it?
C: You know, this guy goes perfectly what we're saying about accepting others…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … and their own journey.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And, “Is that journey okay with me?”
J: Right.
C: “Is this really what I want?” There's this… where I’ve read it, but this notion that, you know, you… like, commitment with your partner is something that you do many times throughout the relationship.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right? So when you said yes, I don't know, 25 years ago…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … right, you're different people today.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: You've grown in different ways; you are different.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Today with who I am, today with who you are, do I say yes?
J: (Laughs). Wow. Whoa, that's such a big question.
C: I know, and sometimes it's no, right? Sometimes it's, “No, it's not. I'm not okay. This is not what I want right now in my life with who I am today.”
J: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Well, tell us more how Moving On helps people to work through the process of ending a relationship.
C: So moving on have 3 big components. The first one is kind of guiding you through a process of learning about yourself, right? So it starts with the intensity of emotions, right, and how we feel, “Why is this happening when I feel that I'm going crazy” right, “that I can't control my anxiety, I can't control my anger, my rage, I can't control my sadness, my hurt?” So it starts with that and then slowly taking you through the importance of expressing your emotions, being connected with them, learning what they need to say because every single emotion is there for a reason, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And we have to learn to listen to what they're saying and what is it that we need because they're connected with a need. And it also takes you to this relational… so we talked about the importance of early relationships and how they shape us, and it helps you recognize those things. It helps you recognize how you establish relationships with others, right, “What are my relational patterns?”
J: Mm-hmm.
C: “How my other relational experiences have shaped now who I am today and what happened in my relationship.” So the whole idea is for you to really look deeply inside of yourself and figure out, “Okay, you know, this is my raw spot. This is the place that hurts. This is how I react,” right? And as helping you realize that, it's also providing you so with different exercises and different… there's a workbook where you process that, but that's a cognitive level, there's lots of exercises for you to really connect with your emotions and provide you with resources, right, to help you regulate the intensity of emotions so that you can, you know, kind of… when we calm down, we can see things in a different way, right?
J: Uh-huh.
C: So that's what Moving On does. It kind of takes you through this process in a of both emotional and cognitive; kind of the integration of both. And it does that within a context of a community. So there's a community, there's others, and you connect with others that are going through what you are going through. And I'm definitely there, part of that community holding you. Because one of the things that hurts the most, the most devastating thing for humans is loneliness.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: You know, reaching that point where we feel so alone.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So one of the key aspects in Moving On is you are not alone and you don't have to go through it alone; you know, there are others that are struggling like you are and you can connect with others. There’s me and, you know, other professionals helping, supporting you, guiding you through that process.
J: Through the process of divorce or ending of any relationship or…
C: Ending…
J: … what? Yeah.
C: Ending of any relationship. Because, you know, some people… not everyone gets married, right? There's lots of people that, you know, have lived with someone for a long time and they have to… you know, the relationship ends.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So it's just going through the end of a relationship when it's hard.
J: Wow, working through the emotions, yeah.
C: Yes, because the heart hurts physically, Jen; it hurts.
J: Oh, I know that all too well (Laughs); I do feel it…
C: Yes.
J: … physically in my heart area.
C: Yeah, yeah, me too (Laughs); me too.
J: Huh, so people are… you walk them through identifying their emotions and expressing them and figuring out the triggers and just healing essentially; healing their hearts so they can do…
C: Yes, yes.
J: Yeah. Well, that's awesome.
C: What I put here is, you know, “Learn, heal, and grow,” right? So you learn as you heal and as you grow.
J: Learn, heal, grow; I love that. And do people kind of work into their next relationship within that context or how does that look?
C: So Moving On is 14 weeks.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So it helps them find themselves and relate with themselves in a different way. So like I say in the program, I say, “You know what? It's not only about feeling my feelings, right, but feeling my feelings in a certain way.” What we usually do with our feelings, we are so harsh on ourselves.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right? So when we feel sad, we are angry for feeling sad, right? And then we're saying, “Well, I'm sad because I feel that I'm not important,” and… and then you're remembering all these times when you were not important, right? And, yeah, and your little head thing is saying, “Yeah, ooh, don't forget this one. And don't forget this one where you… where you were really not important,” and we just feel worse, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So we end up in that and I'm feeling bad. Of course we want to distract ourselves from feeling sadness because, man, I get depressed; I'm worthless. So the thing is, when we feel sad, allow ourselves to feel that sadness, but in a kind way.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Right? So like you would with your child or with your friend, right; you would hold them.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: You don't have to fix it, you don't have to even say anything, you just have to be there holding, right?
J: Mm-hmm, it’s true.
C: And it's learning to do that with ourselves, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So leaving judgment, criticism, or leaving this desire to push it away and say, “Shut up.”
J: Yeah, numbing. (Laughs)
C: “Move on,” right? (Laughs) “Enough already!” right? Leaving that and just allowing ourselves to feel sad and be okay with that.
J: Right.
C: And something amazing happens and I'm sure you've seen this, you know, in therapy, but whenever you feel any feeling, it can be, you know, sadness, hurt, even anger, it goes up and it will naturally come down.
Mm-hmm.
C: And after you do that, but when you do it in this kind way, right, there's this sense of relief.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: That tension kind of went away, right?
J: And then if we don't feel it, what happens? If we choose to numb of it, you know, numbing behaviors like Netflix binging or drugs alcohol…
C: Right! Exactly!
J: … craziness, what happens? Yeah. (Laughs)
C: Exactly, exactly. And there’s a week that I called strategies of distraction.
J: Ooh.
C: And here's the thing, we do all these things and it can even be things that are in, you know, quote-unquote ‘good for you’ like exercising.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: You know what? Now, you're exercising like 6 hours a day, right?
J: (Laughs). Yeah.
C: And you’re really exercising or you're eating healthy or it can be work, right, working, working, those are ways in which we distract ourselves from how we really feel.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And the thing is that, us not being aware of our emotions doesn't mean that they disappear.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: They are there, but they're kind of quietly silently there. And they impact us cognitively, right, we become more distracted, our memory’s like everywhere, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Physically, we might have gastrointestinal issues or heart issues, headaches, right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And of course, emotionally, we might get… you know, just feel anxious or depressed and we don't know where that's coming from. And it's coming from all these emotions that you haven't allowed yourself to feel.
J: Mm, wow, that's huge.
C: It is.
J: And so it's kind of the ‘feel it to heal it’ method; you have to feel it to heal it.
C: Yes.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: Yes. And feel it, but the key is how you feel it.
J: Hmm, what's the trick?
C: Kindness.
J: Ah, not judging the feelings, okay.
C: Yes, yes, exactly, yeah.
J: Oh, that's great, I love that. And where can people find out more about Moving On?
C: Oh, there's the Moving On website, it’s www.movingonhelp.com.
J: Nice. And it’s a 14-week program…
C: Mm-hmm.
J: … with a community, for those who want to move on from a relationship; sounds great.
C: Yeah.
J: And what made you develop this? You know, did you see the need or…?
C: Yeah. So as I was working with couples and sometimes, again, they come to see me when it's too late, and I saw individuals that… you know, that was so hard; so hard. And I saw them once a week and we tried to work through this, but once a week was not enough. So when they came the following week and I would ask them, “How are you doing?” and they were like, “No, I'm struggling. You know, I haven't been able to sleep all night,” or, you know, there's going to pick up the kids and having this panic attack, ending up in the ER; all these things. So I'm thinking, you know, there's more. When we are in that state when the pain is so intense, we need more than 1 hour.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And they told me, “You know what, Carolina? My friends are tired of listening to me because it's always the same thing.”
J: (Laughs). Yeah.
C: “My family… so I don't want to call them anymore because they're like just telling me, ‘Come on already,’” right?
J: Right, right.
C: “So I feel worse when I talk with them.” So there's all these… they don't have who to turn to.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And that's what made me think of, “How can I be with them when I'm not with them?”
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And, “How can I help more people?” right? So I really thought about, “What is it that I do in therapy? How is it that I help people? What is my process?”
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So you were asking about, you know, success rates, “Okay, so if I take a look at all these, what is it that I do? How is it that I walk them through from this place of feeling, you know, completely hopeless to this place of feeling at peace with themselves?”
J: Yeah.
C: And that's kind of what I did to develop the different steps towards that healing, towards that place where you can be at peace, when you can forgive…
J: Yeah.
C: … when you can… you can find that… you know, be compassionate towards yourself and towards others.
J: Yeah; oh, that's so good. And some people divorce or separate and are bitter for years and years. So of course, we all could use help like that when we have a struggle like a divorce or separation or leaving a relationship. Really, it's just a form of the time to grieve.
C: Yes.
J: And a lot of people don't properly grieve. We know we grieve after a funeral, but many don't realize you need to grieve at the end of any relationship or sometimes even during the relationship when you come to terms with the fact that the person isn't going to be who you thought they were going to be (Laughs). So…
C: Exactly.
J: Yeah, that’s great.
C: Yes, absolutely, there’s a grieving process. And… and what you were saying, sometimes it is, you know, there's so much resentment, so much anger and we don't realize how much that is harming ourselves…
J: Mm-hmm.
C: … how much that takes a toll in any relationship that you want to develop later on. And also, if you have kids, in your relationship with your kids, you know?
J: Oh totally.
C: So it's so important to recognize, yeah.
J: Right.
C: And that's why it's so important to really process the end of relationships because many times, you know, we end a relationship and then we start another one, and now it feels good and I have all those nice feeling. But then, you know, some time goes by and we’re like…
J: Yeah.
C: “Oh, man!”
J: (Laughs)
C: “Here I am again!”
J: Yeah.
C: “How is this happening?”
J: Right.
C: So it's so important to really process endings.
J: Yeah.
C: You know?
J: It's true. That just triggered… or not triggered, it reminded me of another friend who divorced and she carries so much resentment and bitterness toward the man; and it's over and it's still eating her up.
C: Yes.
J: Yeah.
C: So when you were asking me about, “How do I know if there's an attachment?” right?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And I was saying, “Well, when you're sure…” there you go. When you have that and that’s eating at you, that is the sign that there's something profound, deep inside of you, but that's about you.
J: Mm.
C: That's about you.
J: Wow.
C: And most likely about you, you know, what you mean to others.
J: Wow; holy cow, that's so good.
C: Mm.
J: Well, good. I'm so glad you're doing good things in the world.
C: Thank you, Jen, mm-hmm.
J: Yeah, movingonhelp.com, we'll have a link in the show notes for anyone listening. And, well, let's lighten it up a tiny bit and talk about some of your favorite things, Carolina. So tell us your favorite easy meal?
C: My favorite easy meal (Laughs). So I've ate… (unclear) [45:42] of easy. Okay, you know what I do? And my kids love it and it's my way of getting veggies to them.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: I get all the veggies that I can find and I put them in this food processor, but I don't have them completely, you know, just salted, I just have that process where they're tiny little bit…
J: Yeah.
C: … so you can feel texture.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And then what I do is, I get some onions and chop them really small and then I put all these veggies in… you know, in the pan. And then I add… I can just leave it like that or I can add some ground turkey or ground chicken and I do that. And then I put sauce (Shaking sound) and then I make a lasagna.
J: Ooh!
C: So I make, it can be either just a veggie lasagna. But, you know what? The tricky thing, when I made a veggie lasagna, they could swear that it had meat; they could swear, and it was just veggies.
J: Wow!
C: So what I do is, I put the pasta… and sometimes I don't have time to do the… you know, the lasagna has those… the special pasta, sometimes I don't have time so I just put noodles because it's easier. And I just put them there at the bottom of a pan and I put this sauce and then I put cream.
J: Mm.
C: I put cream, light cream, and cheese and then another… you know, the noodles and then the sauce and then cream and then cheese, and it's delicious! Really good, and it's really, really quick.
J: And do you precook those noodles or do you put them in uncooked?
C: I precook them.
J: Precooked, okay.
C: So they're boiling while I'm making the sauce.
J: Yes. Oh, that sounds so good; I'm going to make that.
C: Yes.
J: How easy is that. And really, you could do that with the veggies just for having spaghetti in the spaghetti sauce.
C: Yes.
J: Oh yeah.
C: Yes. yes. Now, I'm going to give you another tip.
J: Okay.
C: And this is my… my Latino tip that's coming up.
J: Okay.
C: There is a little… and I think that's the secret to making this recipe taste so yummy. So if you go to the Hispanic section, any Walmart, any grocery store, there's these little… they’re little bottles and they're called Maggi.
J: Can you spell that?
C: M a g g i.
J: Okay, yeah, I've seen those.
C: And they are yellow and they're either with chicken or, you know, chicken flavor or meat or beef flavor. You buy that and you put a little bit of that any… so it's seasoning, right, you use that instead of salt and it'll definitely make everything taste really yummy, yes.
J: Ooh!
C: So I think that's my trick.
J: Oh, that's good.
C: Oh, and one more thing. You see, I'm remembering my tips; one more tip. Anytime that you bake anything that you make like lasagna or anything with tomato sauce, make sure to put a little… a tablespoon of sugar.
J: Ah.
C: Sugar, because that is going to cut the acidity of the tomatoes and that makes it really tasty, yeah.
J: Okay, very good.
C: There you go, all my tricks. (Laughs)
J: Yeah, that’s great.
C: My secret.
J: I want to come eat at your house; yum.
[Laughter]
C: Whenever you want.
[Laughter]
J: And what's your favorite book?
C: My favorite book. You know, I read a lot in Spanish, but what book in English that I really, really liked is a book by Daniel Siegel and it's called ‘Mindsight’. And it is not written for… for therapists and it explains so much from a neurological perspective of everything that happens inside. So I really enjoyed Daniel’s book.
J: ‘Mindsight’, okay. I haven't read it, but I loved neurology and so does my oldest, so we'll grab that; he'll read it.
C: Yeah.
J: He's on the track to be some kind of, I don't know what; something with the brain, I can tell. That's where he keeps focusing. (Laughs)
C: Yes, yes. So Daniel Siegel talks about the interpersonal neurobiology. So, for him… so what I like about Daniel Siegel is that he as the relational component. So there's a lot of the attachment stuff that we talked about today from a neurological perspective.
J: Whoa.
C: Really interesting.
J: Oh yeah, I can't wait to read that one.
C: Yeah.
J: Okay, ‘Mindsight’. Well, I'll remind our listeners that we'll have links to everything we're talking about, including the book and some reference to the recipes at jenriday.com/125. And now, Carolina, what does it mean for you to be a vibrant happy woman?
C: I think, that connection with myself, but also, giving that to others. And, for me, that makes me happy. (Laughs)
J: Yeah.
C: Giving that… you know, reaching out my hand to anyone that kind of crosses my road. Sometimes people are a little skeptic about it like, “Is she really wanting… you know, hmm?” But so it's feeling it and being for others. Does that make sense?
J: Yep, yeah; essentially, being the person you're going to help them to be, lifting them up to where you are and leading the way; huh, I love that. And what about a challenge for our listeners?
C:So I would like to challenge the listeners to be kind with themselves.
J: Mm-hmm.
C: So at moments when… you know, when they're feeling anything, when they're just too tired, when they're irritable, maybe feeling hopeless, sad, to give themselves a little time take a little time and go to one place, wherever that is, (is it in your home? It can be in your car; it doesn't matter) a little place where you can be on your own and just allow yourself to feel however it is that you're feeling in a kind way, accepting it, you know?
J: Mm-hmm.
C: And welcoming your feelings.
J: Yeah.
C: See if you can recognize, you know, that judgey voice that wants to come up. (Laughs)
J: Right.
C: And if you can say, “Okay, for now, if you can step aside for a little bit and let me feel this and let me see what I can learn about this,” right?
J: Right.
C: If I'm irritable, what is going on?
J: Right.
C: You know, what is it that I need? I might need some space, I might need love, I don't know. You know, what is it that I'm needing?
J: Right, I love it. It's kind of like parenting yourself the way we all wish we would have been parented.
C: Yes!
J: (Laughs)
C: Exactly, yes.
J: Well, Carolina, you're amazing. I am so glad I got to talk to you. I hope to meet you in person one day, but thank you so much for being on Vibrant Happy Women.
C: Jen, thank you so much for having me. I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this conversation with you and my hope is that, you know, the listeners will find it helpful and really grow and find something for themselves. But I really, really appreciate your invitation and having me in your show. I think it's wonderful, you know, what you are doing.
J: Thank you; you as well. Thanks for being here
C: Thank you, Jen.
J: Take care.
C: You too.
J: Thank you so much for listening today. I love you guys, thanks for coming every week, and I want to let, you know, that we are creating transcripts of every episode. You can find today's transcript on the show notes page at jenriday.com/125. Also, we will be discussing this episode in the Vibrant Happy Women club small groups. If you're not yet a member of the club, you can get on the waitlist (it's going to open again soon) by going to club.vibranthappywomen.com/join; we would love to have you. I will be back next week talking to Tiffany King, and she has some amazing meal ideas that are practical. You know those days when you come home and the fridge is empty or you only have 15 minutes or you're going to be on the go or everyone's on a different schedule? She actually has meal plans for each of those situations and we're going to learn about that next week. I will see you then, and until then, make a fantastic. Take care.
Outro: Thanks for listening to the Vibrant Happy Women podcast at www.jenriday.com.