86 Transcript: The Secret Lives of Introverts (with Jenn Granneman)
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JR: You're listening to the Vibrant Happy Women podcast, episode number 86.
JG: At first glance, people think that they are naughty you're standoffish. I've had some people say some mean things to me which, you know, I won't repeat but, you know, it was along the lines of, “Wow, I thought you were, you know, one way, but actually you're different when you kids know you,” and, to me, I was just thinking like, “Well, you know, I I'm just kind of a quiet person.”
Intro: Welcome to the Vibrant Happy Women podcast, stories of vibrant women living happy lives. And now, your host, Jen Riday.
JR: Well, hello there, welcome back. I'm Jen Riday, host of the Vibrant Happy Women podcast and mom of 6, and I help busy moms simplify their lives with practical no-nonsense easy tips to help you spend less time on mundane tasks and way more time taking care of yourself and pursuing your passions and living a life you love. I support women on their journeys of living simply and in alignment with what feels good through the Vibrant Happy Women Academy, which you can learn more about at vibranthappywomenacademy.com. Thank you so much for joining me today. We are currently in the middle of a contest. You can win one of 5 free journals simply by leaving a review for the podcast on iTunes or Stitcher and we have instructions for how to do that at jenriday.com/86. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see the comments section, ‘how to leave a review’. Once you do so, just send us an email at email@example.com and let us know you did it, and then you'll be entered to win; it's so simple. These journals are cute and fantastic and they'll help you develop a little bit more self love and happiness in your life. And we appreciate every review because they help the podcast to grow.
In fact, I want to share one of this week's reviews with you from Mamalou3. She said, “Oh my gosh, I stumbled across podcast and I'm so glad I did. Not only did this episode speak to me, I really enjoyed Erin Chase and her being so real and honest and the info on the 5 dollar dinners is something I'm now cranking out on… cracking out on.” (Laughs). “I'm a stay-at-home mom, just needs some connection sometimes, and this podcast has really just spoken to me. It's wonderful and just what I've been looking for. Here's to listening to older episodes while I run kids around and while I go for my walks and also, while anxiously waiting for the newer episodes. You have a new follower for as long as you're doing this, Dr. Jen. This is amazing.” Mamalou3, I wish I knew your full name, thank you so much, this means the world to me. For everyone else listening, I would love to hear your thoughts on the podcast, especially if you could leave a review; it helps so much. Again, go to jenriday.com/86, our show notes page, scroll to the bottom and look for ‘how to leave a review in the comments’; there's a video that will help you out. Those who enter and let me know that you did it, have a chance to win one of those 5 cute journals also listed on that page.
Last week, I spoke with Erin Chase all about easy meals for your family but also about being present, really living in the moment, and loving your life in the moment. I loved when Erin had to say about having a simple, simple morning routine that involved getting her kids to school; that was the one thing she focused on. So you don't have to be complicated with what you're doing to be balanced and happy, simply be present in the moment. Today, I'll be talking with Jen Granneman, all about the secret lives of introverts. Jen is an introvert herself and has made a copious study of introversion, and you might be surprised that you could be an introvert; It all comes down to where you get your energy from. So let's go ahead and dive in and get some great tips on this.
Jen Granneman is on a mission to let introverts everywhere know it's okay to be who they are. She has advocated for introverts since 2013 when she created introvertdear.com; the popular online community and publication for introverts. For most of her life, she felt weird different and out of place because of her quiet ways. Now, she writes about introversion because she doesn't want other introverts to feel the way she did. Jen lives in Minnesota with her 2 cats. She's the author of the book ‘The Secret Lives of Introverts: Inside Our Hidden World’; so good. Well, welcome to the show Jen.
JG: Hi, Jen, thanks for having me on.
JR: It's so fun to interview a fellow mid Westerner, one stayed away. (Laughs)
JG: Yes, that's right. You're Wisconsin, right?
JR: Yes, so fun.
JG: Nice. I can hear that Midwestern accent coming out on both of us.
JR: I was trying to think I don't have it, but I'll try to sound more coastal now.
JG: I like to think I don’t have it too, but, you know, it creeps up on me.
JR: You know, the way I hear it, I feel like the Midwest has no accent. We have the perfection and everyone else should adhere to our accents. (Laughs)
JG: I completely agree.
JR: Cool. Well, let's dive in with your favorite quote and then hear your story.
JG: Sure. My favorite quote is a quote by Susan Cain the author of ‘Quiet’, and the quote is, “Spend your free time the way you like, not the way you think you're supposed to.”
JG: And this quote speaks to me because, for much of my life, I thought I had to be an extrovert. I thought I had to go out every weekend, maintain dozens of friendships and have this perfect, busy life. This quote reminds me that my time is truly my time. If I want to stay home with a book on a Saturday night, that's okay. If I only want to get involved with people or organizations that energize me, not drain me, that's okay too. As I say in my book and often on introvertdear.com, “It's okay to be an introvert.
JR: Mm-hmm. So how do you decide whether something drains you or energizes you? What do you tell people to look for?
JG: That's a great question. I think I just try to pay attention to how I'm feeling, both in the moment and after something; after an event. Sometimes it's not easy to tell upfront whether something is going to be energizing or draining. Like, for example, I like to tell the story in my book about being invited to a birthday party a few years ago, and I thought it was just going to be awful because it was a huge group of people, it was going to be a group dinner followed by going to this club that was also an arcade. It was like a dance club and an arcade.
JG: Several levels. At the time, I was just like, “Oh, my gosh, this is going to be way too much!” But it was a good friend of mine and sort of that introvert guilt kicked in and I thought, “Well, I should go.” And for some at the time, I did feel drained, but then I ended up meeting another introvert who wasn't sure if he wanted to be there also, and we spent the night talking and connecting and kind of making fun of all the people dancing on the dance floor, and it ended up being a really fun memorable night. So sometimes you just can't tell but, you know, sometimes you can. You know, that that girls night out or that bachelorette party or whatever the event might be might be draining to you, so then it's okay to say, “Well, I'm going to pass on this one.”
JR: Okay, that makes sense. Well, so tell us more about how you decided, “Okay, I'm an introvert.” You gave yourself that label and made the decision to start helping other people with that.
JG: Yeah, absolutely. So for much of my life, I felt like there was something wrong with me; and I bet a lot of introverts can relate to the sentiment. Growing up, teachers said, “You're so quiet,” my parents prodded, “Why don't you talk more?”And… and I inevitably got, what I call in my book, an introvert hangover, which is when you feel physically unwell from too much socializing.
JG: I wondered why other people would still keep going; like why could they still keep going the next day or later in the night? My friends were hurt when I told them I wanted to relax at home instead of hanging out again.
JG: As I got older, I still couldn't shake this feeling that there was something wrong with me. I worked as a journalist for a few years then I went back to school to become a teacher. My graduate program was full of these outgoing would-be teachers who always seemed to have something to say.
JG: They sat in little groups on breaks, talking away, even after we just spent hours doing some sort of collaborative learning. I on the other hand was over-stimulated by all the noise and people and activity, so I would bolt for the door as quickly as possible. I always wondered why I was the only one who seemed exhausted.
JG: Pus in my classes and with everything else, I struggled with something called word retrieval; and this is a common problem that many introverts face. Word retrieval is trying to quote-unquote ‘locate’ in your mind the exact word that you want. Dr. Marti Olson Laney, who wrote ‘The Introvert Advantage’, suggests that introverts struggle with word retrieval because they process information deeply and rely more on their long-term memory, as opposed to extroverts process information clicker and rely more on their working memory.
JG: So like many introverts, when I was put on the spot, whether it was on a date, during a job interview or when I had to speak up in class, my mind went blank and words seemed to escape me, which of course just intensified all my overstimulation.
JR: Oh yeah.
JG: So all this to say, I spent a lot of time comparing myself to other people. I just never seemed to measure up; I thought I was broken. But learning about my introversion changed all of that.
JR: Mm-hmm. well, so when did you learn about it? What… what brought you to that point? You mentioned Susan Cain from the book ‘Quiet’, did that have a part to do with it?
JG: Yeah, that absolutely had a part to do with it. I do love her book. I discovered my introversion when I came across a book called ‘The Introvert Advantage’ by Marti Olson Laney, who I mentioned. I just happened to be in a bookstore one afternoon, a used bookstore in the self-help section, I came across her book, I bought it, I read it cover-to-cover. And although I consider myself to be a sensitive person, I'm actually not much of a crier.
JG: I just kind of… you know, I keep it inside. But when I finished the book, I actually cried because I never felt so understood in my life.
JR: Aww, that’s great!
JG: Yeah, yeah!
JR: Oh! Well, so that's awesome! And how did you… I mean, I noticed you have quite a following on Facebook and introvertdear.com, how did that all come about? That's really cool you want to help others with it.
JG: Yeah. So after I read that book, I realized there was a word for what I was; an introvert. And it really seemed like a magic word to me. I know that's kind of cheesy to say.
JG: But it… it seemed magical because it explained so many of the things I had struggled with my entire life; things that it made me feel really bad about myself. And best of all, that word meant I wasn't alone, there were other people out there like me; other introverts.
JG: So say what you will about labeling, but that little label changed my life. So that's why I went on to later write ‘The Secret Lives of Introverts’ and later found introvertdear.com. I write about introverts because I never want a quiet person to feel the way I did growing up. I just had this compulsion that I had to reach out to other introverts and start connecting with them and start letting them know what I had discovered.
JR: That's so great. Well, so you have all these… I immediately had an image in my mind of you and all the other introverts having a gathering. Have you done something like that? And what would a gathering like that look like?
JR: It's just such a fun image in my mind.
JG: You know what? I actually did hold an introvert gathering of sorts about a month ago when my book came out.
JR: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
JG: I called it an un-party because I got like… this is the kind of party I want to be at and other introverts want to be at.
JG: I was like so worried the week or 2 leading up to it. I was just like, you know, bunch of people RSVP'd on the Facebook invite, but what if they all ‘introvert out’ at the last minute and don’t come?
JG: I think I even posted at one point like, “Hey guys, I know we like to cancel plans but don't cancel these plan, please.” (Laughs)
JR: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s hilarious.
JG: Yeah, but it was really fun. A lot of people showed up. We have these little quiet areas where people could just go and sit and not have to chat.
JG: I also created a coloring book a few years ago with a… with some fellow introvert, and so we had some pages from the book out that people could just said in quietly color. And we tried to just do a lot of things that would help introverts feel more comfortable being in a large gathering like that. So I would really love to do something like that again, to be honest.
JR: That's such a great idea. It almost seems like you need to write the next book, ‘How to Throw a Party That Will Make Introverts Feel Comfortable’, you know? (Laughs)
JG: Well, that’s a great idea.
JR: Yeah. Well, tell us some success stories or, you know, how you're helping to change lives and make things easier for other introverts.
JG: Well, thank you. I hope I'm changing lives and making things easier for other introverts. So in my book, I encourage people to embrace their introversion. I say, “We need to be working with our introversion rather than fighting against it,” and in my book and on my website, I show introverts how.
JG: So one thing that I like to tell introverts is to remember that your needs are valid too. Society often tells us introverts that our way is not the right way.
JG: As a result, we become accustomed to hiding our needs or pretending. We pretend we're having a good time at the party, when in reality, we're exhausted, or we feel pressured to give our boss an answer right now when really what we need is time to think. However, as I'm sure listeners know, when you don't say what you need, you pay a price. The good news is, often people aren't purposely trying to burden you or take advantage of you, it may be that they simply aren't aware of what you need. So I encourage introverts, if you need a few hours to yourself to recharge from a busy week, then take it; tell your spouse and friends. Do you need someone to stop talking to you for a few minutes so you can concentrate? Tell them. Whatever it might be, remember that your introvert needs are valid too. And I get into details about these things more in my book.
JR: Mmm, that's great. And ‘Secret Lives of Introverts: Inside Our Hidden World’. Well, so as you were talking, I thought to myself, “You know, I really crave that quiet time,” so I think I have a deep part of me that's an introvert, but I fake it really, really well. (Laughs). So what do you say to people who have a mix or they're not sure where they fall?
JG: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think a lot of people are in your camp where they feel like they're an introvert secretly, but actually they can show up in an extroverted way.
JG: I like to remind people that introversion and extraversion are on a spectrum, meaning they're not ‘all or nothing' traits. Everyone acts introverted at times and extroverted at others; it's all about what your preference in general is. Also introversion is a temperament, meaning it's something you're born with. And research shows that introverts will likely stay introverts for life, meaning introverts will probably always have a preference for calm and solitude. However, this doesn't mean that introverts won't grow and stretch as people.
JG: On the contrary, research shows that people tend to change over time and usually for the better; that's because our personalities, not our temperament, will grow over time. So it's not uncommon for people to say, “Well, I was a really shy quiet kid when I was younger,” which was certainly the case for me. I was not only an introvert, but I was also shy and sometimes socially anxious too.
JG: As I've gotten older though, I've learned how to, like you said, kind of fake it when I need to, especially when it comes to a situation like this.
JG: I’ve had to do a lot of this sort of thing lately to promote my book. And to be honest, it's not a comfortable place for me, I'd much rather be behind my computer, you know, quietly by myself than putting myself out there. But it's something that I've adapted to over time, and I think a lot of introverts are in that position.
JR: Well, you're doing a fantastic job; you're faking it well. (Laughs)
JG: Oh, thank you.
JG: Oh, well, thank you; whew!
JG: it helps that I have some notes in front of me. (Laughs)
JR: Right, right. Well, everyone go out and grab Jen's book, ‘The Secret Lives of Introverts: Inside Our Hidden World’, it's fantastic. And whether you're full introvert or not, it will help you understand yourself and probably lots of other people better; so I think it's great. And we'll wait for your party book, ‘How To Throw An Un-Party’ I love that, Jen.
JR: Well, we'll take a quick break for our sponsor and then we'll come back and talk about some of your favorite things.
(Interview resumes) [18:42]
JR: Alright, welcome back, everyone. And, Jen, talking about introverts, I want to kind of delve into some of the qualities about introverts. I have a friend… I don't want her to know.
JR: I don’t want her to know.
JG: A friend. (Laughs)
JR: I have a friend… okay, there's this person I know who seems really standoffish, almost naughty. (Laughs). But…
JR: But after I got to know her, I realized she's deeply introverted and she's got kind of this protective mechanism going on that comes off a different way, so maybe we can touch on that as you talk about the traits of introverts and what it really is.
JG: Got it, yes, I’m so glad you brought that up. That is something that I've experienced as an introvert and a lot of other introverts have told me something similar to that.
JG: You know, especially when they're younger, at first glance, people think that they are naughty or standoffish.
JG: I've had some people say some mean things to me which, you know, I won't repeat but, you know, it was along the lines of, “Wow, I thought you were, you know, one way, but actually you're different when you get to know you.” And to me, I was just thinking like, “Well, you know, I… I'm just kind of a quiet person. Why did you interpret that as me being rude or mean?” But since… I'm really glad you brought that up.” So, you know, for those who might not know what an introvert is, an introvert is someone who simply prefers quiet low-key environments. Compared to extroverts, they get more drained by socializing and they enjoy spending time alone because solitude recharges them. And we often wrongly assume that introverts spend time alone or are quiet because they don't like people; really, it's that introverts need that downtime to show up in their jobs and their relationships, they need that alone time to be at their best. Introverts are people who tend to think before they speak and they often do their best work alone. They prefer quality over quantity when it comes to relationships, meaning they often have small social circles and they prefer it that way.
JG: They tend to dive deep both in their relationships and in their interests and many introverts seek meaning in all that they do. And then of course, like me, they may feel like they're faking it when they have to network, and like me, they're often better at writing their thoughts than speaking them because writing gives them time to reflect on what to say and how to say it. And a lot of people think like, “Oh, introverts are sitting at their computers or with their journals writing something,” but this also applies to emails and text messages.
JG: Introverts often prefer to communicate over email or text, again, because it gives some time to reflect on what they want to say.
JR: Mm-hmm, makes sense.
JG: And, you know, as I said earlier, I like to remind people that introversion and extraversion are not all our nothing traits; you can be an introvert who acts extroverted at times, you can be an extrovert who needs some time alone. People are on a spectrum when it comes to these traits and it's all about what your preference generally is.
JR: Oh yeah, that makes sense; that makes sense. I love how you use the word ‘deep’ repeatedly. You said, “Introverts store the words in their brains very deeply so it's harder to get them back out,” and then you mentioned deep dive… deep diving into their interests and their relationships. And so, gosh, that word ‘deep’ really resonates for me. I guess I'm really introverted because I love to go deep in all of those things. I'm always thinking about hidden meanings and everything and in relationships. Yeah, the world would kind of feel really shallow if everyone were just the extroverted party animal which doesn't seem very deep to me oftentimes.
JR: So this gave me a new appreciation for introversion.
JG: Right, yeah.
JR: I love it.
JG: Oh, that's great; that's exactly what I'm hoping to do.
JR: What about kids who seem to be introverted? You were there, how can we help children best who seem shy and withdrawn like that?
JG: That's a great question. So I was a teacher for many years and I had inverted and extroverted kids in my classroom, and I've developed quite a passion for helping introverted students especially because I feel like they often get overlooked in our classrooms. Classrooms are noisy, busy places; usually the students who are the loudest and who raise their hands the most are the ones who get the most attention.
JG: And, you know, as a teacher, I understand that; I was there. I know how… how exhausting a day teaching can be and how many things are vying for your attention. So I really have a passion for helping introverted children be more, I want to say, visible, but making accommodations for them in the classroom. So overall when it comes to students or… or if you're a parent who is raising an introverted child, the most important thing to keep in mind is not to shame your child because of their introversion.
JG: I actually saw an amazing example of this a few months ago at a family gathering. I have a nephew who is very quiet, very introverted, he's very young, and I was actually the one who was in the wrong in this one. I had said something like, “Oh, he's… he's so shy, isn't he?” or, “Oh, he doesn't talk much, does he?” which I of all people should have known not to say something like that.
JR: (Laughs). Yeah.
JG: But it just kind of came up. And his mom said, “Well, we don't like to use the s h y word around him.”
JG: “And we just like to say that he's an introvert or that he keeps to himself.”
JG: And it dawned on me then, “Okay, I get it, she's trying to make sure this boy it doesn't feel… grow up feeling ashamed or stigmatized for being a quiet kid.” And, you know, I think that's a lesson that parents and teachers could apply to both their students and their children.
JR: Yeah, that's great. “He's a thinker,” right? (Laughs)
JG: “He’s a thinker,” yeah!
JR: (Laughs). Love it. Well, let's talk about a few of your favorite things, starting with a habit that helps you feel successful.
JG: Well, this might be an obvious one, but downtime alone each day is something that helps me feel successful. For me, I like to read or listen to podcasts in my bedroom with the door closed. I know not everyone can afford to do that just because of demands from family or your job.
JG: And it is hard for me to do sometimes too because my life gets very busy.
JG: But I like to just, even if it's 10 minutes by myself alone, no other human beings in the room with me, I found that it really helps me. It helps me show up for my work and it helps me show up for the people in my life better.
JG: Gives me energy to interact with them, it keeps me from getting cranky. (Laughs)
JG: Really helps the mood. And interestingly, a recent study conducted by the BBC and a research collective called Hubub found that being alone may be the best way to truly rest, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert.
JR: Mmm. Oh, I love it. (Laughs)
JG: And of course this is something… yeah, this is something introverts have known for a while, right? But there are so many benefits to spending time alone. We're able to think deeply and focus on our own thoughts and feelings because our attention is not divided and interrupted by the presence of someone else.
JG: We're able to show up better in our relationships because resting in solitude helps clear our head and can give us energy, especially for an introvert.
JG: And as Pablo Picasso said, “Without great solitude, no serious work is possible.”
JG: When introverts say they want to spend time alone, many of them aren't just lying on the couch, I mean, sometimes they are, (that was me last night) but often they're doing something else like writing a novel, building a website, practicing an instrument, planting a garden or creating art, and you can't do these things if you're always in the company of other people.
JR: That's so great! It makes me want to celebrate, you know, introversion even more. And, you know, it reminds me of the… I teach a lot about self-care on this podcast and in everything I do. I really am a proponent of everyone, extrovert or introvert, getting up in the morning and having 10 minutes alone; whether that's meditation or journaling or prayer or whatever they choose. But I really feel like that fills the tank for everyone; extrovert or introvert. So I love that research from the BBC; so good.
JG: Yeah it was just really validating study came out. And like you said, it's good for extroverts to do this too. They may not be as drawn to solitude as we introverts are, but everybody benefits from it; it's powerful.
JR: I agree; I agree. Well, Jen, what's your favorite easy meal? What do introverts like to eat? I’m just (unclear) [26:48].
JG: Oh gosh! Anything delivered.
JR: Oh yeah.
JG: Or takeout.
JR: Oh yeah.
JR: Okay. Well, then kitchen gadget, have a favorite kitchen gadget; can opener?
JG: Can opener. (Laughs). (unclear) [27:03] containers for those leftovers. (Laughs)
JR: There you go! There you go.
JG: What's your favorite book?
JR: Oh gosh, I have so many favorite books; I love to read. I've mentioned it already, but ‘The Introvert Advantage’ by Marti Olsen Laney because it explores the biological base for introversion. It was a book that first introduced me to introversion. It's a little bit of an older book but I think it will still help introverts understand themselves and the way their system works.
JR: Oh, okay, ‘Introvert Advantage’.
JG: Yeah, ‘The Interpret Advantage’. By system, I mean the brain, the nervous system, the whole package because, as I said, there is a biological difference between introverts and extroverts; we're wired differently.
JR: You know, I keep thinking about one of my kids who has slight anxiety tendencies, and I feel like social interactions take so much out of her. And, yeah, it really comes down to wiring. I don't know how anxiety and introversion might be related or not related, but just that wiring is different for her. And I have 6 kids so there's this ability to see differences, you know, among them; so interesting.
JG: Interesting. Yeah, introversion and anxiety are different, but it's not uncommon for introverts to have anxiety.
JG: And like you said, anxiety can be something that is genetic; some people just sometimes have more of a tendency toward it than other it's just from birth.
JR: Yeah. Well, and not just anxiety, but a lot of traits where maybe when you're socializing it just takes more out of you. Maybe… like, I'm a very sensitive person. Words have such deep meaning to me, so if someone's using awful words toward me, it's so very draining; more draining than it seems like it would be for my husband who can take that kind of thing. (Laughs)
JG: Yes. Yep, I’m the same way.
JR: So just so many… yeah, so many traits that could be somehow interrelated; it's so interesting. Well, what's the best advice you've ever received?
JG: Oh, goodness. I've received a lot of good advice over the years. It's hard to say what the best is, but… okay, as I share in my book, some of my best advice came to me as a teenager on a screen print t-shirt, of all places. It said, “Be as you are.” I bought the shirt much to the chagrin of the friends that I was with because it was just kind of a weird looking shirt, a little too small.
JG: But I just felt drawn to this, you know? And I was this very nerdy person growing up. I had this big perm, these big glasses.
JR: Sounds like me.
JG: Lots of acne.
JR: Oh yeah, sounds like me.
JG: Yeah. And so I was just drawn to this message to just be as you are instead of what you think you're supposed to be.
JG: It took me many years to decode that message, but ultimately it was what I needed to hear in terms of my introversion.
JR: Yeah, that's so good; authentic, right.
JR: Well, let me remind our listeners that they can find links to everything we've been talking about, including your book, at jenriday.com/28. And now, I would love for you to share what it means for you to be a vibrant happy woman.
JG: Yeah, absolutely. So, for me, being a vibrant happy woman is working with my introversion rather than fighting against it. It's knowing that I need solitude, not only to survive, but thrive as an introvert. It's about not comparing myself to extroverts and others because, as an introvert, I have my own unique strengths.
JG: And it's about speaking up for my needs because my introvert needs are valid too.
JR: Mm-hmm, sweet! It's so empowered; love it.
JR: Let's have a challenge from you to our listeners and then we'll say goodbye.
JG: Sure. So this week, I want to challenge everyone listening to do something alone. Close the door to your bedroom and read a book. Go to a movie alone or go on a walk. Remember, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, being alone is the best way to rest. And if there's one thing we women need in this busy modern society it's more rest.
JR: Oh yeah, I love it.
JR: Forget the movie and the book and the walk, just go rest. (Laughs)
JG: Just go rest; just go take a nap.
JR: Well, Jen, this has been amazing. Everyone, you can find Jen at introvertdear.com, and do go out and grab her book ‘The Secret Lives of Introverts’; so good. Thank you for being on the show, Jen.
JG: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
JR: I'm thinking about throwing an un-party like Jen talked about where a bunch of people come and just watch ‘This Is Us’ with me. (Laughs). So if you're in, send me an email. You have to come to Madison, Wisconsin, but otherwise, you're in; come on over for my un-party. Alright, my friends, this has been fantastic and I always have such a fun time with you and with our guests. Remember, I will be back next week interviewing Tara Mohr, all about playing big instead of playing small. If you feel like there's something more you should be doing with your life, like you have a talent you need to share or something you need to be doing, you won't want to miss that episode. I will see you next week. Don't forget to leave your review on iTunes. Just go to the show notes page at jenriday.com/86, scroll down and watch that 1-minute video on how to leave a review; we would be so grateful. Now, go be happy, go live your purpose, play big, and I'll see you next time. Take care.
Outro: Thanks for listening to the Vibrant Happy Women podcast at www.jenriday.com.